Talk:Rape
Votes for Featured status Winn Adami. Self-nomination. Just finished writing this one. -- EtaPiscium 08:18, 2 Oct 2004 (CEST) * Support. Lots of info. --BlueMars 13:50, Oct 2, 2004 (CEST) * Archived. --Alan del Beccio 00:56, 28 January 2008 (UTC) More pics This could use another pic or two. I think one of her and Dukat in the Firecaves would look nice around the bottom of the article. Jaf 20:43, 24 Sep 2005 (UTC) :That would be nice to see, I agree. Also what this needs is a link to a "Real World PoV" article about how much DS9 fans despise this character.....– Lotus000 22:49, 14 February 2007 (UTC) ::Do they not like that the character exists, or do they not like the character because she's an unlikeable antagonist? 23:09, 30 June 2007 (UTC) :::Definitely not to the second idea. Any article like that would very quickly be deleted. Memory Alpha is not here for personal fan opinion. I can't think of a way an article like that could be done and still be encyclopedic. --OuroborosCobra talk 23:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC) ::::Another pic that would be nice to see is a picture of her in the First Minister's office. ~Anya Prynn | ''Talk'' 19:32, 14 June 2007 (UTC) Text dump from Wikipedia article up for deletion This is in danger of deletion on WP. Enjoy, hopefully. Much of it seems to be replicated in your article but there may be some useful information or links. Feel free to delete any or all of this text, with a Memory Alpha consensus of course, if and when you find any part of it unnecessary. One of three (see Talk:Nog and Talk:Rom) VvAnarchangelvV 19:32, January 10, 2011 (UTC) :Removed the text. It is now in the history in revision 1229340. -- sulfur 18:08, February 14, 2011 (UTC) Winn Adami was raped (trigger warning: rape, rape culture) Yes, okay, let's take this to the talk page indeed. Winn meets a man who she believes to be a Bajoran farmer in "'Til Death Do Us Part". It is actually Gul Dukat in disguise, claiming to be a guide sent by the Prophets. As "Anjohl" he becomes close to her, and eventually they have sex for the first time in (I believe) "The Changing Face of Evil". During "When It Rains..." Dukat is blinded by the Pah-Wraiths and thrown on to the street. She doesn't learn his true identity until "What You Leave Behind", when the Pah-Wraiths resurrect him from the poisoned wine and in doing so restore his Cardassian image. And she is horrified. She is beyond horrified, she is disgusted with Dukat for fooling her, she hates herself for having had sex with him. She never once consented to having sex with Gul Dukat. Had she known Anjohl was Dukat, she would likely have had him executed on sight. It doesn't matter if she was the one to initiate the relationship with Anjohl, it matters that she had sex with Gul Dukat and was never given the opportunity to say no to Gul Dukat. That is rape. You want to stick with what canon tells us? That is what canon tells us. That Gul Dukat had sex with Winn Adami and she was not allowed to say no because she was not allowed to know who he was. People have reverted my edits because it's an "improper use of legal terms". Well, rape by deception (also known as rape by fraud in some jurisdictions) actually is a crime. It's not universally recognized as yet, but people have been prosecuted for it and have gone to jail for it. More and more places are considering legislation to make this a crime. In Israel, "In 2008, the High Court of Justice set a precedent on rape by deception, rejecting an appeal of the rape conviction by Zvi Sleiman, who impersonated a senior official in the Housing Ministry whose wife worked in the National Insurance Institute. Sleiman told women he would get them an apartment and increased NII payments if they would sleep with him." source. That is effectively what Dukat did: posed as a guide from the Prophets and told her (basically) that if she was in a relationship with him then she would achieve higher standing with the Prophets. It is only a victim who can say that he or she was raped, and Winn states quite clearly that had she known she was having sex with Gul Dukat she would have said no. The show might not explicitly call it rape, but when have tv shows (especially in the 90s) wanted to openly discuss such issues? Winn Adami never agreed to have sex with Gul Dukat. Gul Dukat nevertheless had sex with Winn Adami, while altering his appearance in order to trick her into believing he was someone else. Ergo, Gul Dukat raped Kai Winn Adami. 01:48, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :Nothing in this essay changes the fact that the term wasn't used in the show. That's what we're here to cover. This isn't the forum to analyze the show and compare with with real-world present day law.--31dot 02:02, March 2, 2012 (UTC) In terms of real-world law, I was explaining why the person who took out the term "rape" because of present day law was wrong - it is present day law. In terms of the rest of this ... are you honestly trying to tell me that because Winn never says the word "rape", we can't? I highly doubt that if Worf pulled a phaser, walked up to a random security guard, and shot him in the face you would say I couldn't call that "murder" just because we don't know exactly what murder is defined as under Federation law. The fact is, IN THE SHOW, Gul Dukat has sex with Winn Adami without her consent, and that is rape. It's not explicitly verbally stated, but it is shown. 02:12, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :I'm not really sure why such a charged term should be used by us when it wasn't in the show. You might have a point about it being shown, but by your own admission, the definition is not "universally recognized" and until it is we shouldn't apply it to observed situations. :It would also seem the writers of the episode didn't think it important enough to use that term, which would have been quite simple for them to do.--31dot 02:19, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Um, no, the fact that a definition isn't universally recognized doesn't mean we can't apply it to observed situations when it is beyond obvious, eg, man disguises himself, man therefore removes woman's capability to consent to the person she is in actuality having sex with, man and woman have sex, therefore man has raped woman. Until early this year/late last year in the U.S. the FBI definition for rape still had the word "forcible" in it, meaning for example that a frat boy drugging a girl's drink at a party and then having sex with her wasn't legally considered rape at a federal level. But if you asked people in, say, 2009 or 2010 if that was rape, they would say yes. I don't agree with your assessment that because the writers didn't put the word "rape" in that means they didn't think it important. They could've had any number of reasons for not putting it in, ranging from what the network would allow, to what the executive producers would allow, to what time would allow, to what they thought would be in character. Speaking of character, let's look at the time frame here: Winn finds out the truth about Dukat's identity. Within ~20 minutes of audience time, which can't correspond to more than ~40 minutes of character time, during which Winn and Dukat are almost entirely alone in the Fire Caves, until Sisko comes, and when Sisko comes, he comes in guns blazing (almost literally). We don't see all those forty minutes. Maybe she flies into a screaming rage and berates Dukat for raping her. Maybe she just sits there, in shock as her life and her plans falling apart all around her, too horrified to say anything about her rape other than "to think that I took Gul Dukat to my bed...". Listen to her words. She is too shocked, too disgusted, to even say that they had sex out loud. That is not the writers thinking that a term isn't important, that is an accurate depiction of a huge number of rape victims, who have trouble admitting even to themselves that what happened was rape even years after the fact. She's traumatized. To require a statement of "I was raped" from her twenty minutes after the fact when she's alone with her rapist in order to call it rape is just ... you can't require that. That's just being blind to how some people react to their rapes. So you can't say that it would have been simple for the writers to put that in. No one but Winn knows both the true identity of Anjohl and that they had sex while she was unaware of his true identity, so it's not like anyone else can just say that either. I'm also curious why your objection seems to center around the fact that the word "rape" is so "charged". You act like it's some terrible affront to Dukat when, in reality, if people have gotten to the last episode of DS9 and still cling to the belief that there's a decent person under the genocidal serial rapist, well, pointing out one more instance (after the "comfort women" on Terok Nor) isn't going to change much. It doesn't matter if the term has a bad connotation, it matters if it is true and accurate, and based on what we are shown in canon it is 100% true and 100% accurate. 03:17, March 2, 2012 (UTC) ::First off, I've locked this page until some consensus is reached, and that clearly hasn't been done yet. ::Second anon, I suggest you read to learn how to indent correctly here. As for how this discussion is labeled, "tagging" this as part of rape culture clearly shows you have a bias that this must be identified as rape, a term which is charged and is not clearly defined in all cultures. I'm not condoning rape in any respect, nor am I suggesting this situation isn't what could be called rape in most western cultures, but you are clearly trying to paint anyone that disagrees with you as supporting "rape culture", and that will not stand. Describing the situation doesn't require the term rape, nor the extra language to make it clear that you think it was rape by talking around the word in legalese. They had sex, and if we need to "comment" on the event beyond that at that point in the text, a simple link to the Wikipedia definition already provided above in a bgnote should be good enough, since MA is not a soapbox nor a place for commentary on the subject. You could also simply work in more of her reaction to the part where she learns his true identity, since if there are quotes from the show to support what has been said, then clearly there is some direct information from canon that can be used. - 10:02, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Sorry about the indenting - I've been trying to indent properly but every time I refresh the talk page it changes, so I'm not sure what to do about that. Okay, I have to leave for work soon, but I do have a couple comments. First, I'm not "tagging" this discussion with "rape" and "rape culture" to prove a point, I'm providing a trigger warning so that people who are triggered by discussions of this sort will know not to read the section. I'm not making any accusations (in fact, I provided the warning before anyone replied to my original post), but comments that boil down to "she didn't use the word rape immediately after it happened, therefore it's not rape" are triggering to some people, so I'm glad I did put the warnings. Second, yes, I talked around the word "rape" in my last edit, but there was also nothing in that edit that contradicted canon. Yes, Dukat took away Winn's ability to consent to sex with Dukat. Yes, he gloated over what he did to her in the Fire Caves. I'm not giving commentary, and I certainly wasn't soapboxing on the page itself, although I understand if you believe that I was doing so here on the talk page (I disagree, but understand). But even if you don't want me to use the word "rape" because it's a "charged" term (something I still haven't heard the rationale for), there is no getting around the fact that Gul Dukat never asked for Winn's consent, in fact Gul Dukat went to considerable lengths (his Bajoran disguise) in order to ensure that Winn would not be able to give consent. That is not commentary, that is irrefutably canon. That is a point that needs to be in the article. Maybe not in the exact spot where I've been adding it in, but it should be there. When I get home tonight I'll go through the episodes again and pull some quotes/scenes to use. 16:38, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :As AD said, if there is canon information that would help better describe what happened missing from the article, then it can be added without using unnecessarily charged language. Rape is a charged word; merely being accused of rape is enough to ruin a person. It shouldn't be tossed around lightly. --31dot 21:15, March 2, 2012 (UTC) :I'm not sure the warning was necessary; users read this, or any, website at their own risk. We can't warn people of every conceivable "trigger" there is.--31dot 21:21, March 2, 2012 (UTC) Okay, this is not a discussion about trigger warnings so all I'm going to say on that topic is that I use them as a matter of courtesy and whether you use them or not is not really my business, although I do wish you'd respect them a bit more. Second, I fail to see why we should be worried about "ruining" dukat's reputation by pointing out something that the show clearly states happened (more on that in a minute) when we already have proof in canon that Dukat is a) a war criminal, b) someone who oversaw a program of genocide, c) someone who raped multiple Bajoran comfort women, d) someone who tried to send another Bajoran woman out of an airlock after they had a child together. I think he did a really good job of ruining himself long before he raped Winn. Heck, I would think (hope!) that the genocide alone was enough to do that. Third, you want quotes. Okay, let's talk quotes. Solbor tells Winn in "The Changing Face of Evil" that "Anjohl Tennan" is actually Gul Dukat (I think I said earlier that she didn't find out his identity until "What You Leave Behind", apologies for that one as I hadn't seen season 7 in a while). After an initial period of denial, she looks at Dukat and says "Don't touch me. My life is over. The Pah wraiths sent you to destroy me." Once she knows who Dukat really is, she won't let him touch her arm, much less kiss her/have sex with her. Dukat protests, saying the Pah-Wraiths sent him to save her, and she spits, "Lies. Nothing but Cardassian lies. To think I let you touch me." Now at this point, I'm not sure how much clearer it can get, because what Winn is saying is that not only is Dukat not allowed to touch her now, but that had she known, she never would have allowed it. She is describing a situation in which she had sex with a man against her will, in which she was never given the opportunity to consent to sex. In short, she is describing her rape. But that's not the end of their conversations about this. In "When It Rains..." Dukat interrupts Winn studying the Book of the Kosst Amojen and this happens: ::WINN: Remember your place, Dukat. ::DUKAT: I thought my place was in your bed. ::WINN: That was before I knew who you were. ::DUKAT: Adami, I'm not the same man I was during the occupation. The Pah-Wraiths have changed me. ::WINN: But they can't change what you did. Do you really think I could let myself be touched by a man whose hands are stained with the blood of my people? Bolded for emphasis. There is no way to interpret this other than as a rape. If she had known who he was, she never would have consented. Dukat knew this, Dukat disguised himself as a Bajoran and had sex with her anyway. He created a situation in which he knew she would not be able to give informed consent to their sexual relationship and didn't care. He left her with nothing but grief and hate and anger and self-loathing and all he can do is be offended that she's not sleeping with him anymore! This is the man whose reputation y'all are so concerned about protecting! Calling this rape is not "unnecessary", it is fact. And if you're still not convinced, let's look at what Winn says when Dukat returns in "What You Leave Behind": " I don't forgive war criminals. To think I took Gul Dukat to my bed. One of the most hated men in Bajoran history." How much clearer does it have to be? She did not consent to sex with Gul Dukat. She never would have consented to sex with Gul Dukat. In fact, she's so horrified/angry at what happened that at this point she is already planning to murder Dukat in retaliation. (There are arguments that could be made that she was planning this as early as when she realized the Pah-Wraiths used blood energy, but I wouldn't want to, ahem, ~speculate on things not in canon~). Okay, I'm going to sleep. If you want to talk about these quotes more tomorrow, I will gladly give you more of an explanation as to how, exactly, they describe her rape. But for now, they prove that Winn was not aware of who she was having sex with Gul Dukat because of Gul Dukat's deliberate actions to keep that truth from her, that she was never allowed to give consent to Gul Dukat, that she would never have given consent to Gul Dukat if presented with the opportunity, and Gul Dukat had sex with her anyway. And sex without consent is rape. 06:06, March 3, 2012 (UTC) :No one has disputed the events in the episode, so I'm not sure why you felt the need to post such a long explanation of them; your point is starting to get lost in your text. What is in dispute is how to describe it- which should stick to terms used in canon when possible. I don't care about Dukat having a "good reputation" or not. We don't have a picture of the RMS Titanic because it wasn't seen in canon, though it was mentioned; we don't have an article on the Democratic Party because the Party itself was not mentioned, though its members were; we shouldn't call this instance rape unless they did. Your explanations are excellent analyses of the events; but aren't canon. :Winn's "war criminals" line just sounds to me like she regrets sleeping with him; she could have easily said she was raped right then, but she did not. :I would be more than willing to do as AD suggested and post a link to the rape by deception WP article in a bg note placed in that area, stating something to the effect of "Some jurisdictions consider this a form of rape, but that was not said in the episode" combined with a better in-universe description of the events, as we've all said could probably happen. I think that's a reasonable compromise here.--31dot 11:14, March 3, 2012 (UTC) ::While I'm sure we could argue all day about if is the biggest rapist of all time or not, since the crux of this argument is that changing a name is enough for it to be called rape now, with the change in appearance simply being icing on the cake as it were. Since rape is somehow now defined as a crime only a man can commit apparently, I'm just going to throw out that definition and use the Webster one along with the Dictionary.com one, both of which do not cover this new real world, and apparently controversial, legal definition of rape, unless you think we should now label all "outrageous violations" as rape, regardless of if there was sex involved or not. That said, MA is not original research, and since all the rape victims I know aren't going to turn around a kiss their rapist let along walk into a cave alone with them, I still think a simple link, even without explanation, to the Wikipedia article is more than enough if we aren't just going to stick with what was said. - 19:00, March 3, 2012 (UTC) 31dot, well, this is the first time I've been told I've brought too much evidence for my side to a debate. Color me amused. If at any point I did lose you, please tell me and I'll be more than happy to go over it again. Especially since I'm beginning to get the feeling that I lost you at "Winn never consented to sex with Gul Dukat," which I really hope isn't the case. You certainly seemed to be concerned for Dukat's reputation, with your "being accused of rape is enough to ruin someone" comment; I read that as applying specifically to Dukat, apologies if that wasn't the case. That said, I have to disagree with the equivalence you're attempting to draw between Winn's rape and the RMS Titanic. We don't know what the RMS Titanic looks like, therefore any picture of it would likely be inaccurate. We do know what rape looks like, it looks like a person being made to have sex without their consent, and we saw it happen to Winn. In addition, it is rarely, if ever, easy for a person to admit they were raped, so expecting her to cheerfully admit to it while she's in a room alone with her rapist is preposterous and definitely this side of offensive. Archduk3, if you want to argue definitions, I can happily do that for an eternity and a half, starting with the FBI definition, but all three definitions have one thing in common: lack of consent, which is the true issue. The compromise I put forward below should be enough. And you're glossing over the fact that not only did Winn do both of those things as part of a plot to murder Dukat for violating her, they in no way erase the fact that she never consented to sex with Dukat. Right now, I think it's obvious that I'm never going to make either of you see something that should be beyond blatantly clear in the show. I've accepted at this point that rape-by-deception in those words isn't going to get in the article, so I'm (reluctantly) okay with it being in the background section. As long as the reworked version of the article text makes it clear that Winn never consented to sex with Dukat, and in fact was unable to consent to sex with Dukat due to his actions, and then in the background note explain that it's called rape-by-deception in current jurisdictions, I think that's the best I can hope for. I would gladly re-word the page to make this clear, but as it's been protected, I can't. I can wait for the protection to expire or post my edit here, whatever works best. 04:33, March 4, 2012 (UTC) ::I fail to see how the text doesn't already convey that, since it clearly says he was disguised at the time. We are not going to bend over backwards to explain it without a consensus to do so, and that is why the page has been protected, to stop you from changing it before that happens. I still don't see any reason to do anything but provide a link, and to be honest I don't really see why we even need to do that. We don't point out every "murder" like this, and in most cases we just say someone was killed, thereby avoiding the legal term "murder". Why do we need to do otherwise here? We don't need to insult our readers by giving finger to nose detail, and MA is not a soapbox. If you have a quote of anyone on the staff talking about this as a rape, then by all means mention it, but a Star Trek wiki isn't were you should be going for detailed information on what does and doesn't constitute rape, and every action see on screen, or in this case not see on screen, doesn't need us to stop and comment on it, especially since that is what MA is not. - 05:11, March 4, 2012 (UTC)